Curse

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Keep in mind - this is Campfire.
Which means PvE. Which doesn't mean playing badly - but rather means a specific set of rules.

The thing I am wondering - is why does D-Shot get all the love?
It's a 10 sec recharge skill (compared to 5 of Savage), that does limited damage (compared to other +damage skills). It does disable the interrupted skill for an additional time though.
The problem is - of course - the specific of PvE. Most guys you run into had their builds designed with one thing in mind. Fire off those 3ish spells that they have and then die. Pretty much in a matter of seconds. Well, they probably weren't designed that way but, that's the grim reality of their existence.

It's the same reason why nobody bothers with Diversion. The point of these skills is for the foe to be alive in the time that they are disabled to actually FEEL the lack of the skill. And here they are dead.

With death being the best form of shutdown in PvE - and also insanely easy to achieve - why the D-Shot love?

Cebe · Nov 25, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

With a decent level of Expertise, D-Shot's cost is negligable, unlike Savage Shot. Personally I love both and often take both on my bar. Many Rangers take 2 interrupts, but when you look at the others, it's clear why D-Shot is well loved for PvE (if you ignore it's disabling capability). Concussion Shot costs a fortune, and Disrupting Shot, though nice, has a silly recharge, Disrupting Lunge requires a pet. The elites are a different story.

When I interrupt as a Ranger I don't really care what damage I'm inflicting, so long as the skill I want to disrupt is disrupted.

D-Shot comes into it's own in PvE, I feel, when fighting against foes who heal. It's nice versus Word of Healing, Healing Signet, Lion's Comfort, Ether Feast, Glyph of Restoration; basically any skill which heals and has a quick(ish) recharge, and has the ability to slow down your team's slaughter rate. Here the recharge bonus from D-Shot is worthwhile.

I see your point and it's a fair argument, but in reality there just aren't as many Ranger interrupts as good as D-Shot in terms of energy cost or recharge. The skill disabling ability is just icing, under some circumstances.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

With a decent level of Expertise, D-Shot's cost is negligable, unlike Savage Shot. Personally I love both and often take both on my bar. Many Rangers take 2 interrupts, but when you look at the others, it's clear why D-Shot is well loved for PvE (if you ignore it's disabling capability). Concussion Shot costs a fortune, and Disrupting Shot, though nice, has a silly recharge, Disrupting Lunge requires a pet. The elites are a different story.

D-Shot comes into it's own in PvE, I feel, when fighting against foes who heal. It's nice versus Word of Healing, Healing Signet, Lion's Comfort, Ether Feast, Glyph of Restoration; basically any skill which heals and has a quick(ish) recharge, and has the ability to slow down your team's slaughter rate. Here the recharge bonus from D-Shot is worthwhile.

I actually thought of the price but considering how insane Expertise is - I really didn't gave it a second thought. Especially since D-Shot is pretty much being sold as the elite that never was - and all that because of it's cost? On a ranger?
Also - shouldn't the age of half-activation times aka the age of daze - possibly be the time to actually stop looking at multiple active interrupts?

Considering the desire to shut down certain guys - most of the time, the guy with WoH (or something like a reusable rez) will be the priority target, so he'll die first, whereas there is a reason why we actually have classes dedicated to negating damage despite every class having that option themselves. Those options DO slow us down - but that's what, one or two additional attacks?
Once you focus on a guy - the guy dies.

Just throwing out some thoughts in trying to separate the PvP way of thinking from the reality of PvE.

Edit:
Thanks Dmi for quoting my excellent use of plural!

Dmitri3 · Nov 25, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Once you focus on a guy - the guys dies.

Basically D-Shot is all about flexibility:
1. Focus or not, often there is more that one healer.
2. Then, some mobs even have Resurrection Signets or other rezes.
3. Shutdown a main damage spell from a boss is also a possibility.
...

All in all, D-Shot is limited in it's application vs something specific (Frozen Soil for example would be better for mobs with resurrects) but it is very flexible and just too hard to pass by if you're a ranger with a bow.

Amy Awien · Nov 25, 2008, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Thanks Dmi for quoting my excellent use of plural!

Well, your line did make perfect sense if the one guy is some uber monk type boss.

D-Shot gives the flexibility to disable a key skill even if it's not used by the target that is currently under focus. While you can shutdown one foe at a time by killing it, D-Shot gives you the ability to shutdown a second one at the same time.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

See, that's the thing.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10339147
A superb look at the reality of PvE.
Chop, chop, chop.

If on the other hand some sort of shutdown is actually desired - then something like BHA will pretty much do the job better then active interrupts. You just take it for that special moment, and that's it. After you are done with that area - you move back to your chop, chop, chop build.

I guess D-Shot is a very decent option if one is running multiple interrupts, because, like CB said, the other options are worse. I just don't see the point in pretty much every thread where PvE builds are being discussed to contain the post "Needs moar D-Shot!".
So I'd seriously go with Savage Shot as being the core ranger's PvE interrupt (considering the CURRENT state of PvE!). IF interrupts would actually be used.

Amy Awien · Nov 25, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Whatever suits your style best.

Are you asking people for information or are you starting a debate?

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Are you asking people for information or are you starting a debate?

Debating of course. Because D-Shot is one of those skills that people love mentioning as being one of the perfectly balanced GW skills. And that often means that the skill might actually not be worth it in PvE, because PvE just breaks all the rules that help define a balanced skill.
So I was just wondering if you also feel that D-Shot did not age well with the evolution of the rangers in PvE and if it's time we actually replace it?
Or should it still be one of the defining skills of a PvE ranger's bar?

Dmitri3 · Nov 25, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So I was just wondering if you also feel that D-Shot did not age well with the evolution of the rangers in PvE and if it's time we actually replace it?
Or should it still be one of the defining skills of a PvE ranger's bar?

I hope you're not trying to make a "perfect" ranger bar that everyone should run. Most people suck at interrupts (including me, heh) and their best bet is daze... On other hand you sacrifice an elite for one caster shutdown.

Run what you're most comfortable with because it's not the skills bar that decides the outcome of the fight, but how well you can use it. Yes, there is a fixed max you can squeeze out of a build, but a min is always 0% efficiency.

P.S. I'm not really clear on definition of debate. Is it when all participants argue for endless hours and then in the end call everyone but themselves idiots?

Ben-A-BoO · Nov 25, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Pretty much what has been said already. Celestial Beaver named the most reasons why d-shot is a still a stable on any non-BHA bar...
Cost, being second interrupt, dealing with a nasty boss skill or fast recharge skills, no decent alternative interrupts (putting Elites aside). Isn't that reason enough?

I never leave home without it on my ranger and I sure love it in any format (PvE and PvP) and I don't see that change, so yeah it is one of the defining skills for ranger's.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I hope you're not trying to make a "perfect" ranger bar that everyone should run. Most people suck at interrupts (including me, heh) and their best bet is daze... On other hand you sacrifice an elite for one caster shutdown.

No, no plans for a perfect bar. Just evaluating if D-Shot still is one of those skills that is too godly to pass up on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

P.S. I'm not really clear on definition of debate. Is it when all participants argue for endless hours and then in the end call everyone but themselves idiots?

If the plan was to call people idiots - I'd start the thread in Riverside.
Bigger crowd - bigger selection of targets.

Damian979 · Nov 25, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

I agree with Celestial. In terms of a second viable interupt, it's one of the better choices.

Johny bravo · Nov 25, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

A good example of why you can use multiple interrupts in PvE is in NF. In the Domain of Anguish there is a mission where you have to fight the terrorweb dryders. They have multiple Heavy hitting fire spells and you usually end up fighting 3 at once.

I always take a BHA ranger here. You quickly BHA the first spider, D-shot MS on the second and savage the third. The d-shot lets you ignore the second for a little and concentrate on the 3rd. While all in all this battle take about 2 minutes, your party can quickly be wiped with no interrupts and poor positioning.

There are other areas like this but this one always stands out as a perfect place for a ranger with multiple interrupts.

Also, as mentioned above, d-shot is great for bosses, you can almost spam d-shot and savage hoping to hit a good spell while the team kills him. While this is a very noob-like strategy in a PvP environment it works very well in PvE where the monsters spam skills one after another in a predictable fashion

Skyy High · Nov 25, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Even if you're running BHA, you still want to bring at least one more interrupt for non-spell skills that you're liable to see and want to interrupt (and of course, to be able to snag a skill quickly without waiting for BHA's long cast and flight). There are enough of these in PvE to warrant bringing the second, hard interrupt. DShot is simply the best of the bunch, because if you hit something with it, you effectively don't have to worry about it for the rest of the battle. It certainly makes HM warriors go down faster, casting their healing signets every 3 seconds. I realize that PvE can be "curbstomped" quite easily, as that linked build shows, but rangers' don't have enough good damage skills to really justify not bringing at least one interrupt for those times that it'll be useful.

Amy Awien · Nov 25, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Debating of course. Because D-Shot is one of those skills that people love mentioning as being one of the perfectly balanced GW skills.

Ah, ok, that clears it up. The skill hasn't changed since 2005 (when cast time was reduced from .75 to .5 seconds and all ranger interrupts got an aftercast) which, I think, indicates it is indeed pretty well balanced.

We can only guess if it's actually used a lot or rarely in PvE.

Daze works against spell caster but it needs physicals hitting them. D-Shot is more flexible, disable a key skill and you can ignore the bugger, or a WoH and you gimp their healing. Or daze the monk and D-shot the ele.

Quote:

So I was just wondering if you also feel that D-Shot did not age well with the evolution of the rangers in PvE and if it's time we actually replace it?

How would you suggest it should evolve? Modifying recharge is an obvious candidate for a buff/nerf so I suppose you are not thinking in that direction?

wind fire and ice · Nov 25, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Dshot with a half way decent expertese costs next to no energy,and is byfar the most useful interrupt in the game,even above mesmer interrupts imo.

Savage costs you a decent bit of energy,and dosent disable skills..i cant see how 5s shorter recharge and a little damage makes it even comparable to Dshot,as you said every thing dies with in 3-4 seconds in pve so it has perfect recharge to get a WoH or any other important skill on each target.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

How would you suggest it should evolve? Modifying recharge is an obvious candidate for a buff/nerf so I suppose you are not thinking in that direction?

The thing is - I wasn't even thinking of changing it.
I'd just throw it into the PvP pile. Quite simply because we already have a PvE version of it - Savage Shot. Recharges fast, deals damage. Just what one wants in PvE.

(Although if you INSIST - which I KNOW you don't - but I just like hearing myself speak

: in PvE pretty much the biggest thing is recharge. Sure one can wait around for the skills to recharge before engaging into the next battle - but that's SO 3 years ago. And considering that, when it comes to D-Shot, we are paying with the longer recharge the disabling effect, which is pretty minimal in PvE because of the short life expectancy of the foes we run into, I'd start by cutting the disabled time in half. At least. This makes the skill less potent so we have more room to balance out the attributes that would make it more PvE friendly.
But like I said - considering we have Savage, there is little point in actually wasting much thought on this.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

I cant see how 5s shorter recharge and a little damage makes it even comparable to Dshot,as you said every thing dies with in 3-4 seconds in pve so it has perfect recharge to get a WoH or any other important skill on each target.

What the chop, chop, chop builds show is that there aren't many important skills in PvE. Even WoH pretty much only plays a role when the rest of the build is decent.
Which means you'd want to disable an important skill ON an important foe. Considering the persistent nature of PvE - one can bring D-Shot or BHA (or both) for those foes (just as one might bring Diversion for that one special guy).
But to use it as a core skill - you just don't run into enough guys that would be worth it. Might as well grab the skill with the weaker effect (damage) - because that's all you need.

Amy Awien · Nov 25, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Well, if you have Savage and Distracting Shot you have to spend even less time waiting for recharge.

valence · Nov 25, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I think it is more important to seperate NM / HM.

In HM the fastcast activation is killing it for me. If you need shutdown you will go for BHA and some ias (flail / lreflexes) to keep your target interrupted. Dshots shutdown doesn't work under the effect of daze, another reason not to take it.

Taking Savage over Dshot tho, is something I disagree with. In nearly every case the skill you savaged is better off being dshotted.

In normal mode I bring random bars that are fun to play.

wetsparks · Nov 25, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

think about the Factions campaign, how many mobs have a healer and a ritualist? or two ritualists? Have the group go after one, ranger goes after the other and keeps a life or preservation spirit from going up.